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My birthday is approaching and my wife is persistent in wanting to make me a gift.

I told her I want nothing from her because among her revelations I found out she also betrayed me in this period, the year I needed her the most in my life, she weren’t and preferred to indulge in being flirted with by another man.

So it’s really not the best memory to celebrate because it is just stupidly hypocritical.

Anyway she doesn’t give up, so I thought maybe it can be turned into something useful not just annoying for me.

And I thought that the best thing she might possibly do, is to try to understand me and the consequences of what she caused herself, destroying our relationship.

Summarized, the main Problem is that she is telling herself this narrative

I did something horrible and I am disgusted with myself.
I was young and stupid and not sure of what I wanted until I lost it.

Today I am a different person and I learned from my mistakes. I have been faithful since we moved in together and a loyal wife since we married.

What was before is in the past, we should move on.

My take is:

No. You are mistaken.
You are not a different woman you are exactly the same woman who can and did that.

You only don’t because you’re terrified of the consequences, not because you are healed.
And for me there is nothing to work with how the things are now.

She is avoidant of any kind of subject that could lead to discussion of her infidelity since the day I told her I will stop bringing it up and just observe and evaluate her behavior and healing process (which I concede she is trying). Because she was a wreck and completely powerless, she was collapsing, so I stopped, can’t force her healing, she must do it.

But she does not get it.
She is performing a fantasy where she is the perfect, attentive, loving wife who is all for her man.

Even blind that I stand oceans away emotionally because I see through her delusion. I simply can’t allow her to enter my inner world again unless she is radically changed. She tells herself the story of destined love, I see a fucking roommate.

That’s all. I don’t want to. I think I may even wish that I could allow her closer again, because I saw her pain and that was real, shattering.

But she feels shame, not guilt, not remorse.
And she can’t feel regret because she keeps avoiding to look and understand what and how her betrayals affected me.

I think that is what truly terrifies her, and her avoidant nature is coping in this way. So she is genuinely believing that she is trying, while to me feels like she is not trying at all, so I stopped caring.

This long premise is for this:

What books are worth reading for a wayward to opening up and watching into the abyss where they casted us?
Those books that will light the monsters hiding in the darkness and maybe, perhaps, breaking the shame defensive bubble even for a moment, so they can start to understand why unless you get it you will never be able to even begin preparations for a try at reconciliation.

Empathy not shame.

If you know any very good reads then that’s the only gift I could appreciate from her.

Yeah. 14 years ago. And I’m still here.

They lack empathy. That’s why they have affairs in the first place. That’s the real why. Because they lack the ability to understand that their spouse is NOT an NPC in a video game. They play their own game and we think we are on the same team, but we are just innocent bystanders, audience to their stage.

You can’t make her understand. And it’s not your job to. You cannot teach a color blind person to see colors. You cannot teach them this color grey is likely blue. They will never see blue. They just guess that it is a grey we call blue and use the word blue next time instead of Grey.

Meanwhile, the rainbow of feelings is just ours alone.

That’s why their conscience let them do this in the first place.

You can only decide whether you are ok with their blindness or not. The blindness will persist. You will continue to see it and be deeply sad and disappointed. And want to describe "Blue". And you’ll do all the cool cold water ice feelings stuff. But it just won’t hit home the same way.

I’m sorry. Maybe that’s enough. For some of us it has to be, I guess.

[This message edited by 3yrsout at 8:25 PM, Monday, April 20th]

No. My friend, no. She does not buy herself a book to help her improve herself for your birthday. That's not a gift to you. Appreciate your birth and celebrate yourself on that day. I will do so with you.

I have been trying to imagine what you are thinking here; what you think this act will signal to her and what it means to you. Maybe you want her to know how important and impactful this would be to you? From my perspective, it sounds like you are willing to except a very low standard in a marriage. It makes me feel sad for you. I have no idea how others see it though.

[This message edited by KitchenDepth5551 at 9:39 PM, Monday, April 20th]

Plain and simply because it will take me a lot of words to describe her nuanced contradictions and attempt, but is just not worthy you time:

She is asking what she can do to make me see her change, to allow her closer and to prove me she truly cares.

I can only think of one thing, that she does understand my side.

That’s why the book ideas, I seen they were eye opening for reforming waywards. She is very far in that path, but she is trying.

And not because I ask, I don’t ask or want nothing from her anymore. Initiative is hers.

I do understand her side way better. I am not the one who brought the destruction to our relationship 18 years ago.

And 18 years of trauma bonding and ptsd were enough that my body and mind themselves said enough.

So I am done being the one putting effort, I can lead and allow her in IF she can change, not in behaviors only, she did that, but deeper.

No kitchen do not worry, I don’t accept anything that is below my standards. I stay for now for my daughter only.

Care not how many tears or limerence she has.

Change is possible but from her only, not from me (I already have)

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 10:09 PM, Monday, April 20th]

Ok then. You started by saying that it's your birthday. She is asking what you want her to give you for your birthday as a gift. Well, it shouldn't be this. That's not a birthday gift. Let others celebrate the day of your birth. Celebrate you.

This is something else.

If you don't want to celebrate your birthday with her, then just don't. Don't tell her to improve herself as a gift to you. Do something else. I'll come here at an appointed date and time and celebrate your birthday with you. Others might too. Let us know. Your WW figuring out why she cheated is not a celebration for your birthday.

I don't know if it's a great idea for a birthday present or something you should have to prod her into, per se, but as far as a good book to read "How To Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair" by Linda McDonald really opened up my wife's eyes. It's a fairly short read, but it's packed with good info and gives a really good account of what a betrayed spouse goes through. I think it really drove home just how devastating her affair was. She really soaked it up and took it in.

We listened to the audio version together and it was a little over 2 hours long. One good thing about it was that I could see she was already modeling some of the behaviors suggested in the book, and she really started to understand how important it was to me that she really "got it." I think it's pretty much a must read for any WW or formerly WW spouse.

I simply can’t allow her to enter my inner world again unless she is radically changed.

People don't radically change unless something radical changes them.

Betrayal trauma can radically change a betrayed spouse, although I honestly believe that's rare. Generally speaking, the changes are challenging, but not radical. Most betrayed spouses are able to sort through those changes and find their own way forward.

In general, the changes that wayward spouses go through aren't radical, either. They're subtle, not holistic, adjustments. Sometimes it's enough for a betrayed spouses. Sometimes not.

Expecting your wife to radically change to suit your desires is self-defeating. It's never going to happen. You can either choose to accept that or choose to be roommates. That's on you.

Thanks everybody for the replies I’d like to answer all as soon as I have a moment, just wanted to say I appreciate a lot.

Expecting your wife to radically change to suit your desires is self-defeating. It's never going to happen. You can either choose to accept that or choose to be roommates. That's on you.

Yes I believe that deeply.
I poorly explain myself often in my posts, need to improve with words.

Acceptance is basically my only way for everything today, that’s what it change in me when switching out of trauma.

It goes for everything and everyone, I take what is today and now how it is today and now. I don’t even wish for changes of anything that doesn’t depend upon my agency.

Why I asked here is because it’s her initiative to change herself (I know that her outcome is to get me back, but it’s her goal, not mine, I have none).

I am celebrating my birthday my way, I am gifting myself with a new startup business, will find a hour to lay down on the grass and watch the clouds in the sky, enjoy the drawing my lil daughter is "secretly " preparing for me, and cuddle her.

I’d like to second the reco on the Linda McDonald book.

She should be reading that, or something similar, regardless of her empathic abilities. Ideally, she should have proactively educated herself on what, exactly, you’re going through. Understanding the BS is one of the more pervasive questions in the Wayward Forum.

I totally understand the frustration. My ExWW just wanted to rug sweep it as quickly and easily as possible.

Love and sex bombing you, doubling up on chores, writing long tear soaked letters proclaiming love, change and devotion is relatively easy for them versus…

having to own the affair, taking long hard honest looks at themselves-true introspection, true emotional intimacy, empathy and loving patience, embracing humility, dropping their defenses, allowing themselves to be vulnerable unto you and fully transparent.

That stuff scares the hell out of some people, or is simply lost on them.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 8:18 AM, Tuesday, April 21st]

Thanks for the suggestions, in the end they did their gift on their own.

She asked though about suggestions for what she could do besides her ic and working on her low self worth.

I decided that I would tell her after considering.
I read Pogre and realityblows recommended that book.

I haven’t read it yet and found only general reviews.

Point is her betrayals were long before we got married, before even I moved to her country. My question to who read it is simple: Is it valid mostly for married couples going through an affair or does it hit the same for those couples who went through infidelity at the boyfriend/ girlfriend stage?

Personally I see no difference in kind, but we don’t share the same mental schema so I can foresee how much would annoy me if she were to read an pop out with one of her reactions as "but we weren’t married then, I have been always a faithful wife"

That schema of her I still can’t stand.

Or if you know other suggestions fitting the situation. Thank you all for taking the time to reply

I think her book is probably most helpful shortly after discovery. There is great advice and wisdom in it, so even years later your wife might find it valuable.

I think you might like "The Unbearable Lightness of Being," by Milan Kundera.

I think the book I recommended is relevant for bf/gf or married couples. I agree with Unhinged that it's probably one of the best books to read soon after d day. The main reason for that is it does such a good job of explaining the devastation and pain the BS experiences and the true impact infidelity has on a relationship. I still think it's a good one to read at any stage tho, especially if you have a spouse or partner struggling to grasp why their BS is still hurting and having such a hard time dealing with the betrayal, so I think your wife will still get some good info and possibly understand much better what you're going through. It'd not just limited to married couples or newly discovered betrayals.

Like I said, it really helped open my wife's eyes. She cried a couple of times while we listened to it. I'd recommend the audio version and you listen to it with her. The beauty of that is you'll know what she's hearing and it's not much longer than a long-ish movie at just over 2 hours. You can pretty easily do it in one sitting, or just break it up into a couple of sessions if you can't budget a couple of hours in one day.

Sounds interesting if only because I have no clue and you know by know I like to discover things.

I think where she is stuck is somewhere like this, paraphrasing her own words:

It happened 18 years ago, I wasn’t myself, but I understood what I have with you is irreplaceable and we were destined to be together I am disgusted with myself and if I could turn back time I would never do it. But it was long time ago, we came back together lived together endured hardships and got married. I was loyal to you and I really love you. I am a different woman today and the past doesn’t matter. I want to be with you and I will work and show you how much I care and changed.

I will not add my position here because is irrelevant, but I bet you all kind of can see and understand what is going on and where the problem is.

Her will to reconcile is genuine, I sense it and not in words , so my bs detector is silent.

I owe her nothing, but I am like I am, I would help anyone who asks me my advice.

I can’t really say in my words what I need to be able to reconcile, because I have absolutely zero clue what I need today to feel it.

I am trying to understand what I needed in my past self, but the "I " of today is so far away from my past "self " that we may be 2 completely different persons, not in the intimate inner self, that’s identical, but in the feelings , emotions and simple existing in life.

So being completely clueless a book or books is actually the best I could come up to.

Probably I should put more effort into it, but forcing myself into something is today unthinkable because I’m just no longer that person.
I would be happy to talk about it with her but I’m am fully conscious of how much terrified she is about that, she just crumbles in pieces every single time, so I stopped bothering.

Maybe feels a bit lazy but I know her enough that books and "authority " are something she is very receptive to (also part of the wider problem, but at the same time might help her in this specific circumstance)

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 9:51 AM, Thursday, April 23rd]

I think your main issue, and something you could try to convey to her is, that you never really dealt with it when it happened. It was swept under the rug and festered for 18 years and has returned with a vengeance.

At least I think that's your case based on your last post. There were some other indiscretions as well if I remember correctly. It may have been 18 years for her, but not as long for you if it wasn't dealt with correctly at the time of discovery and swept under the rug. All that did was bury for a period of time. It's been dug back up now, and it's more rotten and smells worse than it did when it was first buried and needs to be properly dealt with. It's been festering for years. For you it likely feels worse than a fresh injury and should be treated as such.

I think the bottom line is that she needs to understand the depth of the pain you're in before she can begin to understand what it is you might need from her, and that's where the book comes in. Changed or not, she is still the same person who inflicted the initial wound. The amount of time that's passed is irrelevant as far as the necessary triage and your healing goes. There hasn't been any healing on your end and pain has not lessened over the years for you.

It's like when you go to the dentist and get a tooth pulled. It doesn't really hurt at first because you're given novacaine. It's not until you get home hours later and the novacaine wears off that the pain kicks in and hits you hard. You originally put novacaine on your wound and it seemed to "work," but it was only temporary. Now it's worn off and the pain from her betrayal is hitting you hard.

[This message edited by Pogre at 7:05 PM, Friday, April 24th]

You are on the mark.

I stupidly felt protective of her pain and self disgust at the time of the affair after she came back on her knees 18 years ago, we are almost at the anniversary of it, it was may, affair started 19 January and we broke up (I did, she wouldn’t take the initiative and probably would have kept going) end of march when I flies to her, as we had long distance relationship (different nations).

The only moment I confronted her is late summer when I couldn’t pretend anymore that I was believing her lies tha she never cheated and she collapsed.

Stupid I know and I can’t understand why after that I protected her ego by not mentioning it or digging for the full truth about all I felt (I knew she was craving random guy’s validation and she at the very least flirted or kept emotional situations hips even before the PA with the fat rat 🐀)

And that’s on me, I was stupid, idiot and weak. Allowed her rug sweeping, locked my feelings and voices in the darkest dungeon of my subconscious and resumed the relationship as if nothing ever happened, even being the fiercest in rehabilitating her image towards anyone who could even hint at what she did to me, and I have a, quite "convincing" attitude so the topic was never ever brought up at least if I were around or could have heard of it.

I gave her a fantasy where she was still the pure and loyal girlfriend,soon to be fiancée. White and spotless as a saint. And like every cheater still living their fantasy she gifted another emotional affair not long after.

And I can’t really this in her or nobody else, this is all on me. I can’t overstate how much I hated myself for it but I kept it up until I broke last year.

I should have dropped her in the middle of the street , pack my stuff and flies back, never to hear her again, never to allow her name to be spoken again in my presence.

You say 18 years of rot. Indeed, but felt like millennia of rotting and corroding myself from the inside.

And she never ever thought why I was withering away like from a cancer, she kept the fantasy alive even when she could feel that even sex with her was driving me to vomit and avoidance.

Only now that I have no pain, no care, no respect or real connection she started to care, but she still is incapable to face openly a talk about her infidelity. Yes she confessed, but kept secrets for 18 years. And is still trickle truths as her shame is stronger than her guilt.

Now that she cares she would do anything for me to care again, walking on eggshells all the time and trying to guess what I feel.

But she can’t read me at all and she can’t endure a talk because she’s too shameful and weak in her low self worth.

I don’t know if it’s common to many BS but when the dirty shit comes out in a talk she does turn it into self commiseration and shame and tears, shaking and this kind of stuff. But unlike the past my empathy is missing in those moments. Instead of comforting her and trying to calm her I just really feel kind of bored, disappointed, as I am wasting my time.

So it ends up with a "it’s all fine, I don’t mind" from me and she resumes the perfect wife role as that’s license for that.

In short where we stand is like 18 years ago, when she resumed our relationship as infidelity never happened, since i returned from the ashes into my true self, we resumed from her affair as reconciliation never happened.
Because it didn’t, this is the reality, all the rest was her fantasy and me keeping her lies alive.

The rot is my fault, but I have no idea how to answer her requests to help her understand.

I can’t communicate effectively enough apparently.

Oh an the only thing more retarded than me is my tablet’s auto correct, but it keeps messing up so I’m gonna leave the surviving typos as they are.

Fits better this broken post than a clean text anyway

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 8:25 PM, Friday, April 24th]

This is somewhat off topic from your original question, but since we're talking about books, another book YOU might find helpful is "The Betrayal Bind." It does a good job in my opinion of helping betrayed people understand and navigate their pain, whether they are married or partnered in some other way (bf/gf), and whether the betrayed person is seeking reconciliation, separation / divorce, or trying to decide.

For me this book was super validating and helped me understand the pain of betrayal in a way that helped me work through it.

PS Happy Birthday!

Thanks a lot Arnold

Hi BftS,

I am at the beginning of my journey (w), so take whatever I say with a massive pinch of salt.

I have read this thread, and I had the following thoughts:

- I don’t know your wife and your full story. The things she is saying now (around infidelity and how she has changed) sound like the way a part of the "society" address infidelity (including films). Probably also like many therapists address infidelity. So she may feel she is doing all it takes / it’s needed.

That was exactly my road as well, until I discovered this forum. I found this forum incredibly eye-opening (although I wish my eyes were already fully opened. As I said I am only scraping the surface).

A forum similar to this one may be helpful to her. It is to me.

- I had (again, still work in progress) a deep issue with trickle truthing. I did a huge damage with trickle truthing. Again this forum gave me strength. Have I kept trickle truthing for a period? Yes. It’s been a work in progress, but whenever I feel weak again, I turn up here and "soldier"up.

- My reaction to the pain and devastation I caused is crying / shaking. Again, I am learning to soldier up and don’t let myself go.

Even when I meant / mean well, I failed miserably and I was met with similar words (to yours) from my S.

Lack of tools, skills + bad habits / traits that have been with me my whole life.

I think the right community (like this one) may genuinely help.

I hope you will have / had a nice birthday despite everything.

Maybe the disconnect is that you want your W to change, but

1) she's living in her life and on her schedule, and
2) you want something her to be something different, and
3) you either haven't asked for what you want or you've asked and she hasn't met your requirements, and
4) you won't accept that you and she want incompatible lives.

I agree you're better off out of your fog than in it, but you've pulled yourself out of the fog into a vacuum, and nature abhors a vacuum. Indifference to your W leaves you indifferent to your life. You've put yourself into metaphoric Limbo.

The question you need to ask isn't, 'How do I get my W to be the person I want her to be?' The answer to that question is, 'You can't.'

You need to ask yourself something like, 'What am I going to do about being unhappy with my W, my M, and my self?'

You made choices 18 years ago that didn't, ultimately, work for you. You keep lamenting that and somehow conflating 2008 with 2026. ID think it's healthy for you to keep lamenting your choices at this point. Your best bet is to start living in the present and figuring out how to get the best life you can. Is it too soon? Maybe, maybe not.

Lonely Guilty, sisoon,

It is the present, I can only exist in here. Seriously , stuff about the past or future just washes out of me when I recall, because it’s out of my agency.

I don’t worry anymore about things outside my here and now, challenges? I can manage. Past? It’s already set.

Accept life how it is and live the moment of now, building the tomorrow I want, today.

I tried to explain it many many times, but I can’t communicate it with my writing style. Which I must improve.

Wife is my roommate we can say. I don’t hate her, I don’t reject her , we have nice time and as she wants me and I still like her as a woman we share intimate moments and laugh and I am not barred to her emotional connection either.

It’s just fine for me.

The one who feels that has not anymore what she had, who feels like she lost something rare and valuable is her. And I know she is right.

I love her, but I am no longer in love with her. Cliche but is the best description perhaps of her turmoil.

And I didn’t fall out of love, I was betrayed, that’s what killed it. She knows that too.

She puts it "we had something that people spend their lives looking for and few find. And I destroyed it".

And she wants to win it back.

All I can say, is "ok is fine". I would even like to feel the feeling of love again. but I can’t flip my emotions on/ off on a whim.

I don’t even know myself what could possibly do it, if ever.

I can only imagine that erasing all the remaining cheater traits is at the very least the basis to try.

Because what she craves is reconciliation and to be loved again.

Reconciliation requires rebuilding and that takes 2 committed and healed partners.

I am healed, I simply see no point to commit until she is too.

She is putting effort and that I can see, I can even admire it, so when she asks me how to get to see my past pain to understand and feel empathy I see only 2 ways:

- talk openly

- figure it out

As I said she crumbles in talks, so that doesn’t work.

She doesn’t give up though, then another learning channel is books and therapy (once a week, but therapy works on her flaws right now, not on our relationship).

And she seems to really benefit from books that is why I "lazily " followed up this idea, is something she likes. Maybe something that will help her to see the other side without the emotional pressure she feels with me?

LonelyGuilty,

My story is kind of a mess and my opening post here is even more messy, because it focuses on the emotional journey from the abyss into healing, and my own flaws mixed with my wayward, consequences, different traumas and so on. Basically most people got lost just about the 10 thousands words mark and there were couple of thousands more, all written in free flow.

If you see how long my posts tend to be… well they’re not making the premise of that messy story.

So I can give you the super short version here

I got abandoned at birth (kind of) grow up feeling disconnected and not belonging. Really a bit socially awkward as a consequence. However I like girls and I have always been very popular with them, first teen love that became a serious girlfriend-> cheated in front of my eyes. If I was awkward before, gets worst with my attachment messed up from betrayal trauma. Become a kind of "player" mostly models and actors circles, never commit to anyone (always upfront about it, non exclusive or nothing).

one day, no idea why, I get with a second girlfriend a regular girl so "feels safe" (and by girlfriend I mean I stop seeing or even looking a any other woman, is absolute loyalty the only way I work with relationships), she charms me not for her looks but for her sweetness. 2 years she cheats. I get worse, don’t want any relationship anymore, just sex and not even emotional connections.

Meet my future wife on vacation, love at first sight for both. Long distance relationship between countries. Low self worth her, I build her confidence, she cheats, we break up. Few months later she crawls back while I was trauma bonding with another girl, and for whatever reason she is the only one for who I made an exception and took her back.

18 years of self devouring trauma devastation, depression , ptsd, we are married with a daughter. one day I "surrender" accept it, all disappear and I feel myself again, stronger, peaceful, calm.

I realize I betrayed myself in believing I have forgiven her because she rugswept and never took accountability or changed her flaws. I stay for my daughter but feel nothing for her, no hate, no love, just peace and acceptance.

Today I am very sociable and popular with people in general, no awkwardness at all, I feel like I belong and got natural boundaries.

Is the moment she turns it all around and here we are today.

That’s more or less it, oversimplified

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 6:41 PM, Saturday, April 25th]