SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I also in the beginning had the PI that I used to do a drive by where he would park in front of the house randomly for an hour. The first time she called and was wondering why he was parked there and when I told her he was making sure her boyfriend didn’t show up she was crushed. She cried telling me she told me it was over and I had nothing to worry about. I told her I thought I had nothing to worry about before her affair and look where that got me.

Damn, hits so hard. As always, WWTL is damn legend.

@Unhinged

I fail to understand how a BS insisting upon No Contact is in any way, shape or form undignified

To clarify, I'm not saying setting the boundary is undignified. It's absolutely not. I don't want anyone's take away to be that.

What I'm saying is negotiating, pleading, trying to enforce it, or attempting to twist their arm in anyway. That's when it's undignified imo.

Lay out the boundary and if they baulk, show resistance or out right fight you on it (as with the case I made the post)... just get out. That would be my advice.

@foreverlabeled

Apologies, I was responding under the assumption that you knew the full context, as such misinterpreted your position. Therefore a lot of what I said is invalid. Ignore me.

@Morbs

It's my perspective after reading your latest post that we basically agree. Or in the finer points where we differ at the very least understand one another.

Noted on the dirt analogy. Might have been a little strong.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 7:48 PM, Friday, August 14th]

I'm really pleased with how this discussion has developed. I feel like we've clarified a lot, and I've come away with a more nuanced understanding than I started with. This is exactly the kind of discussion I enjoy—people disagreeing, adding context, refining their positions, and sometimes realizing we're not actually as far apart as we thought. Thank you all for being here and contributing! 💙

** Member to Member **

Just a word of caution here. When the WS proudly announces that they are going no contact, don’t be fooled into thinking that the BS thinks they now have nothing to worry about.

Yes. Rebuilding a marriage takes a lot more than NC, even when NC is truly established.

NC is not recovery from infidelity. It is only a prerequisite - and there are exceptions. Some WSes have recovered while maintaining a professional relationship with their aps - rare, but possible for some WSes.

The idea that a betrayed partner has to plead with their partner for them to do the bare minimum is what I'm trying to push back on.

Where does that come from? That's pushing back on a straw man.

If the BS has to plead, it's not R. I have some vague memories of BSes who reported pleading with their WSes for R, but don't remember any BS being told that pleading is a good way to effect R. In general, the advice from SIers is to walk away if the WS is not remorseful or not meeting R requirements or not a person with whom one wants to spend the rest of one's life, etc., etc., etc.

*****

Look at what the betrayed spouse is expected to swallow while waiting for this evolution. They are supposed to sit there, completely traumatised, taking deep breaths while their partner slowly detoxes off the affair and decides whether stabbing the person they vowed to love in the back is worth the cheap thrill the affair gives them.

Another gross misunderstanding of R.

BSes are simply not advised to be passive. A BS who tells us they're waiting and watching gets a lot of push back. BSes are usually advised to take control of themselves, set and maintain boundaries, and not let their own recovery depend on what the WS does.

*****

...the absolute absurdity that it needs to be explained to a grown adult in the first place.

The need for explanation isn't always absurd. For example, the poster wrote that they didn't understand difficulty with NC until they thought about it.

In how many cases does a couple break up with a stated intention of remaining friends? If married friends become aps, what's logically wrong with the idea that they can get back into the friend zone? What's wrong with the idea that co-workers can return to a professional relationship?

We know from experience that continued contact too often leads to a continued or restarted A. That's empirical evidence, not logic, and new BSes need to be told about that experience.

NC is not always a no-brainer. That's why it has to be stated explicitly.

*****

The unfaithful spouse is free to choose continued contact with the AP.

The betrayed spouse is equally free to say, "Then I am not going to attempt reconciliation with you."

That's it in a nutshell.

Just as M is a contract, R is a contract. I recommend as strongly as possible that the R contract be explicit, but an implicit R contract clearly can work well. I imagine in most cases, the R contract takes form organically over time, as the partners realize they want some change to be effected. Our contract was in writing (bullet points on a spreadsheet) for a couple of years, and eventually we started changing the contract informally as our desires and needs changed over time.

IMO, R won't work - or maybe it's not R - if it's based on the belief that the BS controls the WS. Both partners are relatively free to act in the relationship. Either partner can end R at any time, with or without notice.

R is much more a matter of the BS monitoring themself than monitoring the WS. The BS needs to stay on top of thoughts, the feelings underlying the thoughts, what the BS likes and doesn't like about what's happening in R, The BS needs to take action to resolve the issues that arise from day to day. So does the WS.

Monitoring how well the contract is satisfied guides further actions. R going poorly? Figure out what needs to change, and act accordingly - change by making R good or change by ending R.

Note, however, that the R contract needs observable performance indicators. For example, 'WS keeps BS informed of location, activities, and companions at all times' is observable - the WS either does it or doesn't.

*****

IOW, R, M, and life require action. It seems, however, that much of the criticism of R is based on the misconception that BSes in R are passive. They're not - a passive BS is very unlikely to succeed in R, unless they become an effective advocate for themself

I get the idea that many of the criticisms of R come from the critics' nightmarish fantasies about what R is. After all, many of the critics never experienced R, and I suspect one has to have tried R to have any 1st hand knowledge of it.

Step one is to get out of infidelity

Your choices are marriage police or divorce.

Almost no WS voluntarily initiates NC and starts behaving like a devoted partner. Hint, it's because they aren't devoted.

You can't play marriage police forever, but you can't skip it either if you want to attempt R.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 9:22 PM, Friday, August 14th]

Fully agree that begging for or negotiating with the WS for NC is problematic and shouldn't be done.

The opposite kind of WS has been brought up - one who voluntarily goes NC. Mine certainly claimed to have ended his affair and gone NC after DDay1. In his words, he was "committed to seeing R through". I didn't want to police his devices because I knew that would reinforce my sense of distrust, especially while trying to R, and I had no emotional bandwidth for it. Unfortunately this led to 2.5 months of false R.

Seems to me the BS is damned if they do (police the WS), and damned if they don't (potential for false R). A phased approach, like what GTM mentions might be the best compromise - a period of enforcement and oversight until the WS has cleared their heads is probably best, but IME, it's a terrible thing to ask of BS in the throes of discovery. It's only one step down from the BS having to plead with the WS for NC.

Very few BSes are ready to lose the marriage on the first DDay, unless they've been through it all before, like Want2BHappyAgain. The typical path recommended for R already places a huge, unfair burden on the BS. It's hard to issue ultimatums. It's hard to play phone police. I don't know what the alternative is, I'm just protesting placing one more thing in the BS's to-do column.

I agree with DRS - anything short of the WS clearing their own head and finding their moral center *without any help/enforcement/oversight from the BS* is the only good recipe for R.

What I'm saying is negotiating, pleading, trying to enforce it, or attempting to twist their arm in anyway. That's when it's undignified imo.

While that may be true, it's easy to sit on the sidelines and berate a BS who's just found out about an affair and call their behavior undignified. IIRC, you haven't been in that situation. And honestly, neither have I. My ex didn't have an affair. It was a few short days of flirting, a few text messages, and one fuck. Going no contact with the OM was easy for her. I didn't have to plead, negotiate or anything else.

What strikes me as uncool (to be civil about it) is opining on a situation with which you have no personal experience. You seem to have no empathy or compassion at all. Intellectual interest and a propensity to debate anything you find interesting doesn't help a BS in a world of pain and confusion. Seriously, man. WTF?

Post removed as I didn’t think it contributed to the conversation.

[This message edited by EndingsLTA at 6:45 PM, Saturday, August 15th]

What strikes me as uncool (to be civil about it) is opining on a situation with which you have no personal experience.

For what it's worth, I do have personal experience—I witnessed years of my parents attempting reconciliation and lived through the fallout of that.

Even if you argue that only firsthand betrayal counts( which no I don't have first hand experience, I broke up with her at the unconfirmed suspicion stage)applying that standard consistently would disqualify many of the most prominent posters here. By that logic, should Sisoon only comment on same-sex betrayals? Given that Bigger never attempted reconciliation, should he be barred from posting on the topic? Since Morbs was the unfaithful partner, should she be prohibited from discussing her fascinating and eye-opening "perfect storm" theory? And as your own partner only had a brief encounter, should you refrain from sharing thoughts on LTAs?

It is a perfectly valid preference if you personally only want input from people with direct experience. To me, however, that threshold doesn't matter—an insight either speaks to you or it doesn't. When people go to a therapist, the therapist rarely has firsthand experience of every trauma their client brings into the room, yet they still provide valuable perspective.

You seem to have no empathy or compassion at all. Intellectual interest and a propensity to debate anything you find interesting doesn't help a BS in a world of pain and confusion. Seriously, man. WTF?

Yes I do have a prosperity to debate. I also find some discussions intellectually interesting but please don't confuse that with a lack of compassion.

It's clear that my approach isn't for you, and I'm sorry to hear that. However, I can assure you that many BSs have thanked me for my input, both on this site and in other support spaces. So while my style may not resonate with you, it genuinely helps others. I post for people who think like me, that isn't everyone but I know I'd have loved to see this style of post when I was going through it.

Some people feel better with an arm around the shoulder. Some people feel better with cold practical advice. Some people feel better logically investigating the nuances of each position before acting. No approach is right or wrong.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 8:30 AM, Saturday, August 15th]

should Sisoon only comment on same-sex betrayals?

Actually, my W's choice of ap was a concern of mine in my early days on SI. Alas, I found that the thoughts and feelings I experienced were mirrored in the posts of BSes whose WSes chose to conduct hetero As. The words I heard from my W mirrored the words I read in the WS forum and in reports from BSes in JFO, G, and R. So I posted my thoughts, and I took in posts that I read without regard to the gender of WSes and aps.

My reading of Bigger's posts is this: he didn't choose R, but I don't read his posts as telling anybody what R is. He does advocate for R as a possibility for virtually all couples, but only if R is what they want and if they do the work - and I believe he knows that from empirical data. That's what I heard from our MC on d-day - if we want R and do the work, we'll R. It's our choice, and we should choose carefully, because forcing ourselves onto an unwanted path would be painful and unsuccessful. That seems incontrovertible. After all, if R fails, by definition one or both partners didn't do the necessary work.

*****

@DRS, I'm sorry you were impacted by infidelity as a child. But you don't share the actual experience you have. Instead, you produce pronouncements on the what you believe the reality of R is, and your pronouncements are disconnected from reality.

*****

Gently, you usually don't write that you chose to break up. Rather, you have written that you suggested a breakup as a way of getting your XGF to talk about your relationship. She chose to accept the break up. You don't write that you ever discussed why she accepted your suggestion so readily. There are several possibilities. Here are a couple. Perhaps she withheld her reasons to keep you guessing. Perhaps it was simple miscommunication - she wanted to stay but thought you had closed the door. Maybe she was a bad guy; maybe she was just disoriented by an unexpected statement.

*****

IMO, 'policing' is not the right term. Every relationship needs to be monitored on an ongoing basis. IMO, one must stay on top of thigs like what one gets from the relationship, what one gives to it, where it seems to be going, whether or not it's worth maintaining, whether or not one wants change, etc.

It's clear on d-day that the BS has lost touch with the relationship. (So many of us say we thought the M was great!) As a result, IMO, we go back to monitoring the relationship the way we should have been doing all along. That may feel like policing, but really it's probably normal relationship maintenance.

As with pendula, the BS is probably likely to overshoot the ideal amount of attention that's given to the M. If R succeeds, the couple probably get to the right amount of relationship maintenance.

Again, IMO BSes really police themselves much more than they police their WSes. Verifying the WS's location and companions, etc., is probably done primarily to assuage the BS's fears. The less fear, the less vigilance, probably, IMO.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:56 PM, Saturday, August 15th]

@DRSOOLERS As someone who did face this situation, being told out of the blue by a third party that my husband had been living a double life for an extended period of time while I was at my most vulnerable during pregnancy and postpartum, I do find it extremely refreshing to see someone step back from the conventional advice on infidelity and really think about what it is saying. A lot of the advice out there I found frankly unbelievable. (Don't even get me started on couples therapy for affairs because what a mind fuck... I should add that to my list on the thread about mistakes). This website was recommended to me and I came here and read I should "Make the marriage a good place to be". I found the idea *laughable*. I had never stopped putting in effort to make my marriage a good place to be, and that had been weoponized against me, for months. Someone had chosen to treat me like shit; going further out of my way to make their life better did not seem reasonable. I did lurk and find it really useful to read other people's experiences for context (not on Just Found Out, I still can't even look at it) and the perspectives of lots of the posters here. But topsy-turvy seeming advice is everywhere, and it's rare to see it challenged.

I'm sorry you were impacted by infidelity as a child. But you don't share the actual experience you have. Instead, you produce pronouncements on the what you believe the reality of R is, and your pronouncements are disconnected from reality.

We've been here before, We’ve run up against this exact wall before: I simply don’t value personal anecdote half as much as you do. Can we just agree to disagree on this? While my own history with infidelity naturally colours my perspective, I evaluate a poster’s situation logically based on their specific facts, rather than centring myself in every thread. Personal experience is only relevant for near-identical scenarios. Outside of that, you could actually argue it does far more harm than good. It is not genuine support; it is just projection. It's just forcing ill-fitting anecdotes onto posters.

​For example, I’ve noted you historically offering what appeared to be advice to posters struggling with AP comparisons. How could your specific experience possibly be relevant there? You didn't have to navigate the direct, ego-bruising anatomical or masculine comparisons that come with a male rival. By your own logic, should you not have stayed quiet?

*I'm definitively not saying this and do not feel this way. This is following your logic of unless you've experienced it: the reality of it your pronouncements are disconnected from reality. -Logic*

​To expand on that: in my younger days, plenty of lads actively encouraged their girlfriends to make out with other girls, and I was in that crowd. On one occasion, a mate and I watched in glee whilst our partners at the time got very frisky over drinks at a drunken after-party. I can assure you neither of us would have remotely entertained that behaviour with another man, simply because a same-sex dynamic didn't feel like a direct comparison or threat. Misguided or not, that was the perception. Similarly, on another support forum, a user discussed his wife leaving him for another woman and mentioned feeling almost fortunate because he didn't feel 'lesser' as a man, just that she wanted something he physically couldn't provide.

​

Gently, you usually don't write that you chose to break up. Rather, you have written that you suggested a breakup as a way of getting your XGF to talk about your relationship. She chose to accept the break up. You don't write that you ever discussed why she accepted your suggestion so readily. There are several possibilities. Here are a couple. Perhaps she withheld her reasons to keep you guessing. Perhaps it was simple miscommunication - she wanted to stay but thought you had closed the door. Maybe she was a bad guy; maybe she was just disoriented by an unexpected statement.

As for your breakdown of my past relationship, congratulations on accurately expanding on my summary. You’ve earned a gold star for reading comprehension, but you haven't shown any actual relevance. Yes, I suspected infidelity, couldn't prove it, and initiated a breakup in a bid for the truth. She accepted. That isn't a contradiction or a grand revelation, just standard context. A small part of my wider story that I have willingly shared at length repeatedly. What conceivable relevance does dissecting the micro-details of my ex-relationship have here, outside of your broader fetishism for personal accounts.

That's what I heard from our MC on d-day - if we want R and do the work, we'll R. It's our choice, and we should choose carefully, because forcing ourselves onto an unwanted path would be painful and unsuccessful. That seems incontrovertible. After all, if R fails, by definition one or both partners didn't do the necessary work.

That same self-referential trap is present here. That is not empirical data; it is a completely unfalsifiable loop. If R succeeds, the system works; if it fails, someone simply "did not try hard enough." That is like a doctor claiming a sugar pill cures all illness, and if a patient dies, asserting they just did not swallow it with enough belief

My perspective is built on personal experience, extensive literature, and analysing hundreds of cases. Accusing me of being "disconnected from reality" because I refuse to mistake your single living room for universal truth is pure circular reasoning. You flipped a coin once, landed on heads, and declared yourself the sole owner of probability. I am glad experienced reconciliation and that worked in your house, but one fortunate outcome does not give you a monopoly on reality

StrugglingThrough

Thank you so much for that, I hope my thoughts in some way helped you align your own. I feel your response couldn't have come at a more meaningful time for me.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 6:08 PM, Saturday, August 15th]

Personal experience is only relevant for near-identical scenarios. Outside of that, you could actually argue it does far more harm than good.

 Unprocessed experience is a weapon.

Processed experience is a tool.

The harm comes from people confusing the two.

Personal experience is only relevant for near-identical scenarios. Outside of that, you could actually argue it does far more harm than good. It is not genuine support; it is just projection. It's just forcing ill-fitting anecdotes onto posters.

Do you think you could try looking at personal anecdotes as more of an interconnected map of variables? A constellation of data, where each situation has similarities and dissimilarities? I think they are useful in nature, even if the scope of application is limited by dissimilarities. They can also temper absolutes ("always" or "never") and turn it into "generally," "sometimes," "rarely," "hardly ever," "most of the time," etc., and imbue nuance into a perspective.

Like, for example, if NMI shares about her experience with voluntary disclosure and self-imposed NC, I'm going to couple that with her account on how her R&R seems to be going well, and file that data point away under support for the hypotheses "Voluntary [disclosure/NC] is probably associated with higher likelihood of R success." When Gemmy talks about his WW's casual disclosure at a football game, that gets coupled with how R is going in his relationship, and the data point gets filed in similar categories... only now the disclosure hypothesis becomes "Voluntary disclosure, when done with appropriate solemnity and care, is probably associated with higher likelihood of R success." If you look at stories where the WS comes home and announces that they've been having an affair and they're leaving the BS for the AP, but then the AP breaks up with them and blocks them on everything... Well, the BS doesn't have to enforce NC, but do their chances of R still look good? Not really, but also that's what happened with The1stWife, and she and her H are still married....

And then we can use this assimilated data and ongoing hypotheses to assess what we should do in our own personal situations, and recommend to others what they should do in theirs, based on their own individual characteristics and situational variables. 🤓

​For example, I’ve noted you historically offering what appeared to be advice to posters struggling with AP comparisons. How could your specific experience possibly be relevant there? You didn't have to navigate the direct, ego-bruising anatomical or masculine comparisons that come with a male rival. By your own logic, should you not have stayed quiet?

If we're talking about the BS comparing themselves to the AP... How much more physically different from the AP could a husband be if the AP is female? Like, sure, he doesn't have to worry that the AP was better endowed than him, but also he completely lacks a bust and female genitalia. How do you compete with that?

You don't. You work on not comparing yourself at all.

After all, if R fails, by definition one or both partners didn't do the necessary work.

I would also like to push back on this. Both partners doing the work doesn't guarantee success. Sometimes a BS just isn't the kind of person who can ever move on from betrayal, and it's not any failure on their part. Sometimes two people just aren't compatible, or the WS changes and they become incompatible, or one or both partners just realizes being married isn't really what they want anymore... R fails for a number of reasons.

It's clear that my approach isn't for you, and I'm sorry to hear that.

Your approach has nothing to do with me. I'm only here to try and help newbies find their own path forward, to help them recover, heal, and find their own peace.

I don't believe for a moment that you're "sorry to hear that" anymore than I believed your comment in another thread that I "broke [your] heart."

What concerns me is your disdain for any BS attempting reconciliation, your clearly stated contempt for WS, and your apparent indifference to the suffering of members.

What concerns me is your disdain for any BS attempting reconciliation, your clearly stated contempt for WS, and your apparent indifference to the suffering of members.

Me too.